Game feels a little bloated

[abcabcabc339]

Like the devs went over the board with the prepping/unlocking/eclolnomy/RNG. Don't get me wrong this stuff is fun when you get into it, but I miss alpha days, when a dungeon was a dungeon, and the only thinks to unlock were classes and more dungeons.

Now the game is all about unlocking gods, glyphs enemies, preps, lockers, gold, etc. I think gods were the point where the game was no longer "simple", and all of the complexity was in strategy and speedruns. Now the game is not entirely transparent, you will need to alt-tab to find out how to get piety, and how gods punish you.

I think DD is fine game and I wouldn't go back to alpha, but my wishlist for DD2:

#1 It will exist
#2 Tone down the town building. No unlockable monsters/glyphs. No unlockable gods. Just classes, more dungeons.
#3 Fix gods, make them more transparent/simple with piety/punishment. Make atheist viable. Remove a couple (Binlor).
#4 Get rid of knock back/blink. Extra complexity, and just feels wrong in a game where character moves by teleporting, and monsters usually don't move at all.
#5 Tone down the random, dodge is unnecessary on G, and Rogue dodge could simply be temporary buff after drinking/killing or something, figure it out. EM Plants are just annoying. I like procedural generation a lot and that is random enough. (maybe if you wanted more random, just make cooler dungeon layouts?).

[Melon]

I feel like I agree with what you're saying on some points but I definitely have to disagree on others. The point about gods not being transparent is funny to me because they were really obtuse back in the alpha while here you're given a codex accessible in-game at any time that tells you what they do and don't like (except for JJ who, after doing his puzzles, still confuses the crap out of me). I feel the opposite way to you on this point myself.

I think the unlocking is important in this game because the game has an awful lot of systems in it and even with the current drip-feeding of systems it can still feel like a pretty overwhelming game. There's an awful lot to take in at once. I think leaving gods out of it at for a while at the start of the game is a good idea. Part of this might be because of all the stuff added in to balance the game like slows and burning but the game kinda needed it because the alpha was unbalanced as hell. One thing I am very very impressed with with the current game is how incredibly well balanced it feels, back in the alpha I'd just convert a bunch of stuff on sight and ignore most gods.

(P.S. The original alpha had unlockable monsters and glyphs too, they came along with unlocking the classes, in exactly the same way this game does it).

Now in terms of how the game unlocks stuff I really don't like the whole Kingdom Gold and town building thing the game's got going on here. I feel like the concept of Kingdom gold could have been dropped entirely with preps not costing anything and you just unlocked stuff as quest rewards and the whole system would have been cleaner. I've seen quite a lot of comments around the internet of people feeling like the kingdom building was a "grind" thrown on top and while it isn't necessarily a grind in practice it definitely comes across that way at the start and it's a bit off-putting. Paying your unlock resource to carry in powerful items that can all go to waste if you die is something that I think detracts from the game, even if the reasons why are 100% emotional and irrational. It adds in some feeling of "loss aversion" that makes me not want to take part in the prep system, a feeling I personally don't enjoy.

The game has this nice quest system that could have easily been used as the way to unlock things instead of spending gold; beat a quest, get an unlock. There are loads of items and features in the game that can slowly be added one by one, either to shop inventories or the prep screen and it would have smoothed out the experience. There's a lot to be said for the alpha's simplicity in its unlock system. I also liked the way the alpha encouraged you to go for 100% completion more than this game does and left most of the decision on that front totally in your hands, but to be fair the alpha only had like 4 dungeons instead of over 20 so I can understand why it changed.

To be honest a part of me wants this game to be without the prep system entirely, in some way I feel like it tends to lessen the uniqueness of some classes playstyles, like I can start a rogue with a +10 health pendant and now all of a sudden he's not quite the glass cannon that makes him feel so unique. I understand that it can help mitigate the feeling that you need to "save scum" for the right shop items to pull off a particular plan you have but it still doesn't feel totally right to me. I dunno. I know I can opt out of it by just not taking any preps but it feels like I'm intentionally choosing to gimp myself to get around a game design decision I disagree with and I don't like that feeling.

In summary the dungeoneering part of this game is absolutely superb but the "overarching meta-game" aspects aren't as fun as they were in the alpha in my personal opinion. It's still a superb game for sure.

[JayPlaysIndieGames]

I love the lvl of complexity, and honestly think the more the better. Figuring out what the gods punish and reward is a big part of the fun, as well as learning the ins and outs of their boons. It is transparent enough that this info stays with you in the form of the codex.

I also really like the prepping system, because it allows you to tailor your runs even more. I do purist runs when I want to, but I like having the option of taking that fine sword with me, especially if I want to do a run faster or if I want to do a "trick shot" run like only killing the boss.

I think if they were to make a DD2 the best thing to do would be to add more "campaign" type quests like the triple quests, and add more unique dungeon conditions like those seen in the labyrinth/hex ruins/cursed oasis/shifting sands.

[Darvin]

[Blovski]

Personally, I think all the glitter doesn't really compromise the core game, while adding a bit more to the experience. I don't really think there's anything in the game with a huge overlap with other things, which is the key element for avoiding bloat in my view.

[Dreamdancer]

I think all the unlocks are essential for new players. If one would start will all classes, races and gods it would be too much for a new player. Due to the unlocks, you start with limited options and the game becomes more complex with time, but on the other hand you learn all the time.

Grinding: With the steam release i started my second (new) kingdom and I got the impression that there isn't really a grind in the beginning. I prepped all the time 'Bet on Boss' and I had all the time enough money to unlock stuff. Doing some of the money quests, the bronze challenges (in order to unlock the silver challenges) nets enough money to unlock all the buildings. The game becomes really more grinding in the end, when one wants to upgrade the bank further or wants to buy locker and / or vetos slots.

[abcabcabc339]

I'm not going to back down on it being way too complex (keep in mind this is a puzzle game, not an RPG.) Good puzzle games are simple.

Say their are three gods, here is all the factors added by those gods:

Stone Soup
Cost: 35 Piety
Receive ENDISWAL glyph
Stone Skin (repeatable)
Cost: 15 Piety
Destroys 3 nearby visible wall segments, gives 3 layers of Stone Skin (temporary 60% physical resistance) and permanent +3% magic resistance
Stone Form
Cost: 25 Piety
Destroys 10 nearby visible wall segments, grants Might (BYSSEPS) whenever a wall is destroyed, gives +5% magic resistance
Stone Fist
Cost: 40 Piety
Destroys 20 nearby visible wall segments, +50% knockback damage, gives +5% magic resistance
Stone Heart (repeatable)
Cost: 10 Piety
Destroys 15 nearby wall segments, lowers all visible enemy resistances by 5%, gives +3% magic resistance

Plantation (repeatable)
Cost: 5 Piety
Spawns a plant on each bloodstain (acid pools excluded) for 5 Piety each.
Clearance (repeatable)
Cost: 5 Piety + 5n Piety
Remove up to 10 random plants and restore 1 mana per plant removed
Greenblood (repeatable)
Cost: 5 + 3n Piety
Applies Corrosion to all enemies (on dungeon level) and removes a stack of Cursed. Spawns 3 random plants.
Entanglement (repeatable)
Cost: 5 Piety
All enemies are slowed. Spawns 5 random plants.
Vine Form (repeatable)
Cost: 5 + 3n Piety
Grants permanent +1 to damage reduction and +4 to health. Spawns 2 random plants.

Petition
Cost: 45 Piety
Stops inflicting MINOR PUNISHMENT
Last Chance
Cost: 1 Piety
Drain remaining piety and use it making an X out of 100 roll. If you succeed your hp and mp are fully recovered.
Boost Health
Cost: 20 + 25n Piety
Destroy a health potion and gain +20 max health
Boost Mana
Cost: 20 + 25n Piety
Destroy a mana potion and gain +3 max mana
Chaos Avatar
Cost: 80 Piety
Gain a level, lose all corrosion and weakening, gain 100 conversion points, and all monsters have their resistances reduced by 20% (same screen only)

THOSE ARE JUST THE BOONS! Should I copy paste their punishments, and piety? And the explanation for the JJ algorithm? I think I will because that is a great example.

Piety Gain Mechanics

JJ performs a piety/punish roll on the following actions:
Enemy reveal (non-plants only)
Enemy death (XP-valuable only)
Successful dodging
Item conversion
Casting the following: BYSEPPS, WONAFYT, WEYTWUT, GETINDARE, APHEELSIK, CYDSTEPP
This roll picks a random integer from 1-15, which is compared to an internal "happiness value" for the god which starts at 14. If the rolled number is less than or equal to JJ's happiness, 2-4 piety will be granted and JJ's internal happiness value will be decreased by 1 (to a minimum of 5).
If the rolled number is higher, a minor punishment is inflicted and JJ's happiness increases by 2 (to a maximum of 14 again).
The minor punishments are determined by another roll, from 0 to 10.
0 = poison
1 = burn
2 = health loss
3-5 = weaken
6-8 = corrode
9-10 = curse
This is where it gets a little trickier to describe: each status ailment now has a "reroll threshold", and if the punishment roll lands on an ailment with a threshold that's too high, it rerolls instead of inflicting that punishment. All thresholds start at 0 (except health loss and burn, which start more graciously at 1). The threshold number represents the minimum number of RNG rolls needed in any given punishment check before that particular punishment is available.
Thus -- given starting values as an example -- if the first roll lands on health loss, it will force a reroll. That reroll is then at liberty to inflict health loss OR mana burn. If any ailments exist at a threshold of 2 or more, on the other hand, those are exempt for at least one more RNG.
Whenever a particular punishment is successfully inflicted, that punishment's threshold will permanently increase by 1.

This means EVERY TIME I REVEAL A TILE I HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS!^^^ If you say that is very minor, and pointless to remember then you have just proven my point that the game could be more simple!

[Urthop]

[TheSchachter]

First things first, Desktop Dungeons has been referred to as a lot of things (puzzle, RPG, rogue-like, rogue-liTe) by different people, who like different things in it and play it for different reasons. It always bothers me a bit when people say "this game is THIS and therefore shouldn't do X" because they're completely ignoring the fact that other players actually like those elements, and that if you think of the game being designed with a different mindset than yours then it works fine. To be clear, I'm *not* saying you can't disagree with the game's design on some respects, but pigeonholing the game into a single genre and then saying "games of that genre should be like this" is having tunnel-vision. The game is very much a hybrid, or rather, it's own thing completely.

A quick second point: You absolutely don't need to know the mechanics behind Jehora Jeheyu's punishments to use him properly, even in high level play. All you really need to know is what kind of punishments he can inflict, which you get as you experiment with it. He exists this way because he's the GOD OF CHAOS. You're not actually suppposed to be able to predict what he's going to do next!

As for the game's copmlexity, there's a very good reason why these things are all introduced sequentially. Gods come one at a time, and they come with a set of puzzles to introduce you to them! You unlock most new items one at a time. And as for the kindgom gold, it makes a lot of sense to have unlocks based around that rather than individual dungeon runs. In the alpha version it made sense to unlock a new class after one victory, since the core of the game was the one regular dungeon, then four extra challenge dungeons (the rest was extremely late-game). In the full version, you have over 20(!) dungeons whose difficulty scales far more than in the Alpha, and a serious attempt to have players familiarize with each of the different resources and mechanics individually. A slower progression, partially tied to how much resources a player needs to get through a dungeon, makes perfect sense to me. As for the preparations, I found them an excellent way to smooth out the difficulty curve without compromising on the more difficult dungeons. I just beat Vicous Halls of Steel purist the other day; felt awesome and a really good challenge. But back when I first started tackling that dungeon, I needed the preps to get through it. It was a stepping stone onto getting better and lets you revisit the dungeon later for a new kind of challenge.

I realize I sound like a complete fanboy of the game (because I kinda am ), but I genuinely feel like this is one of the most elegantly-designed games I've ever played. I'm pretty sure I understand where you're coming from, but I simply feel like that's going to be the nature of a game like this: I like to think that it attracts players that we can put on a scale with "puzzle" on one end and "rogue-like" on the other end. The game makes concessions between types of play, so there's often going to be people who want the game to be more like one end of the scale or the other... and everyone in between.

Anyway, that's my take on why I love this game so much. Hope I didn't come off as hostile or anything

[abcabcabc339]